Discussion:
Arch-general is becoming a mess !
(too old to reply)
set
2012-08-15 20:56:38 UTC
Permalink
Hello.
I'm an old archlinux user (first installation back in december 2008),
and for a long time, I was very satisfied with arch-general. But some
people - can we define them as bottom holes ? - are rotting this
mailing list, and the community too.
Last threads on systemd was useless. And I can understand that every
single developer will unsuscribe. As a user, I will do so too. I think
archlinux community needs a little clean up and kick the bottom of
people who are not arguing but messing lists.
I won't post anymore on this list, but I wanted to express my mind here.
Please, excuse my bad english, it is 10 pm where I live.
Aren't there any moderators who can kick off trouble makers ?
fredbezies
2012-08-15 20:02:57 UTC
Permalink
Hello.

I'm an old archlinux user (first installation back in december 2008),
and for a long time, I was very satisfied with arch-general. But some
people - can we define them as bottom holes ? - are rotting this
mailing list, and the community too.

Last threads on systemd was useless. And I can understand that every
single developer will unsuscribe. As a user, I will do so too. I think
archlinux community needs a little clean up and kick the bottom of
people who are not arguing but messing lists.

I won't post anymore on this list, but I wanted to express my mind here.

Please, excuse my bad english, it is 10 pm where I live.
--
Frederic Bezies
***@gmail.com
Felipe Contreras
2012-08-16 12:14:39 UTC
Permalink
I'm an old archlinux user (first installation back in december 2008),
and for a long time, I was very satisfied with arch-general. But some
people - can we define them as bottom holes ? - are rotting this
mailing list, and the community too.
Do what the Linux kernel does: ignore the mails. Most mail clients
have an option to mute a thread.
--
Felipe Contreras
Thomas Bächler
2012-08-16 12:19:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Felipe Contreras
I'm an old archlinux user (first installation back in december 2008),
and for a long time, I was very satisfied with arch-general. But some
people - can we define them as bottom holes ? - are rotting this
mailing list, and the community too.
Do what the Linux kernel does: ignore the mails. Most mail clients
have an option to mute a thread.
I prefer the more pragmatic approach: Simply ban some people from the
list to make it quiet again.
Felipe Contreras
2012-08-16 13:08:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thomas Bächler
Post by Felipe Contreras
I'm an old archlinux user (first installation back in december 2008),
and for a long time, I was very satisfied with arch-general. But some
people - can we define them as bottom holes ? - are rotting this
mailing list, and the community too.
Do what the Linux kernel does: ignore the mails. Most mail clients
have an option to mute a thread.
I prefer the more pragmatic approach: Simply ban some people from the
list to make it quiet again.
That's not more pragmatic, that's more authoritarian, but whatever
floats your boat; if you want to squash dissidence, that's certainly
the way.

Cheers.
--
Felipe Contreras
Thomas Bächler
2012-08-16 13:15:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Felipe Contreras
Post by Thomas Bächler
Post by Felipe Contreras
I'm an old archlinux user (first installation back in december 2008),
and for a long time, I was very satisfied with arch-general. But some
people - can we define them as bottom holes ? - are rotting this
mailing list, and the community too.
Do what the Linux kernel does: ignore the mails. Most mail clients
have an option to mute a thread.
I prefer the more pragmatic approach: Simply ban some people from the
list to make it quiet again.
That's not more pragmatic,
It is. Person X is annoying everyone, so person X can't post any longer.
Post by Felipe Contreras
that's more authoritarian, but whatever
floats your boat; if you want to squash dissidence, that's certainly
the way.
I want to squash the noise that has turned this list from a helpful and
nice place to discuss with developers and users into the place it has
been the last few days.
Felipe Contreras
2012-08-16 13:17:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thomas Bächler
Post by Felipe Contreras
Post by Thomas Bächler
Post by Felipe Contreras
I'm an old archlinux user (first installation back in december 2008),
and for a long time, I was very satisfied with arch-general. But some
people - can we define them as bottom holes ? - are rotting this
mailing list, and the community too.
Do what the Linux kernel does: ignore the mails. Most mail clients
have an option to mute a thread.
I prefer the more pragmatic approach: Simply ban some people from the
list to make it quiet again.
That's not more pragmatic,
It is. Person X is annoying everyone, so person X can't post any longer.
Post by Felipe Contreras
that's more authoritarian, but whatever
floats your boat; if you want to squash dissidence, that's certainly
the way.
I want to squash the noise that has turned this list from a helpful and
nice place to discuss with developers and users into the place it has
been the last few days.
That's authoritarian.
--
Felipe Contreras
Vytautas Stankevičius
2012-08-16 13:19:30 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 4:17 PM, Felipe Contreras
Post by Felipe Contreras
Post by Thomas Bächler
I want to squash the noise that has turned this list from a helpful and
nice place to discuss with developers and users into the place it has
been the last few days.
That's authoritarian.
But it is a privilege to post here, not a right. So it is different.

Regards,
Calvin Morrison
2012-08-16 13:23:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vytautas Stankevičius
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 4:17 PM, Felipe Contreras
Post by Felipe Contreras
Post by Thomas Bächler
I want to squash the noise that has turned this list from a helpful and
nice place to discuss with developers and users into the place it has
been the last few days.
That's authoritarian.
But it is a privilege to post here, not a right. So it is different.
Regards,
Right, but waving a ban hammer around makes it not a fun place to be.
Felipe Contreras
2012-08-16 13:29:32 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 3:19 PM, Vytautas Stankevičius
Post by Vytautas Stankevičius
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 4:17 PM, Felipe Contreras
Post by Felipe Contreras
Post by Thomas Bächler
I want to squash the noise that has turned this list from a helpful and
nice place to discuss with developers and users into the place it has
been the last few days.
That's authoritarian.
But it is a privilege to post here, not a right. So it is different.
The authoritarianism is what makes it a privilege. If there was
freedom of speech like in LKML, then it would be a right (kinda).
--
Felipe Contreras
Tom Rand
2012-08-16 14:42:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Felipe Contreras
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 3:19 PM, Vytautas Stankevičius
Post by Vytautas Stankevičius
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 4:17 PM, Felipe Contreras
Post by Felipe Contreras
Post by Thomas Bächler
I want to squash the noise that has turned this list from a helpful and
nice place to discuss with developers and users into the place it has
been the last few days.
That's authoritarian.
But it is a privilege to post here, not a right. So it is different.
The authoritarianism is what makes it a privilege. If there was
freedom of speech like in LKML, then it would be a right (kinda).
--
Felipe Contreras
look at the end of the day this is a place for archlinux support &
discussions with dev's, this is why there are policies for this & other forms of
communication with the dev's & users.
it is not about free speach or whether this is authoritarian
it is about what this place has become due to people forcing arguments which become
flame & troll fest's & get further away from policies to the point where the dev's
unsubscribe!


When that happens the ML begins to fail because of the actions of a few.

I joined this ML in an attempt to give back to the commuinity some of the small
knowledge i have by way of helping others with basic issue's they have, but the
people i have turned on to Arch have seen this here & have stated they wont bother
with the ML as it appears to be just flame wars!!!!!!!!!!!

Whether you feel your argument was justified or not is mute when a support channel
becomes a troll & flamme fest hence why the dev's left.

all i see here recently are rants on rants which really should be taken else where.
Felipe Contreras
2012-08-16 20:26:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Rand
look at the end of the day this is a place for archlinux support &
discussions with dev's, this is why there are policies for this & other forms of
communication with the dev's & users.
it is not about free speach or whether this is authoritarian
it is about what this place has become due to people forcing arguments which become
flame & troll fest's & get further away from policies to the point where the dev's
unsubscribe!
I'm sure Vladimir Putin would say cracking on dissent is not about
authoritarianism, but maintaining a level of civility (or whatever
excuse he comes up with).

The fact of the matter is that it's irrelevant what you say banning is
all about; it's still authoritarianism. You can argue about the
benefits of authoritarianism all day long, but it's still
authoritarianism.
Post by Tom Rand
all i see here recently are rants on rants which really should be taken else where.
Ignore them. Again, that's what people do on LKML, and guess what: it works.
--
Felipe Contreras
Anthony ''Ishpeck'' Tedjamulia
2012-08-16 15:47:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thomas Bächler
Post by Felipe Contreras
That's not more pragmatic,
It is. Person X is annoying everyone, so person X can't post any longer.
You seem to be conflating pragmatism with bigotry.

Those of us who are used to the internet don't get annoyed
by other peoples' silliness.
Calvin Morrison
2012-08-16 15:50:20 UTC
Permalink
On 16 August 2012 11:47, Anthony ''Ishpeck'' Tedjamulia
Post by Anthony ''Ishpeck'' Tedjamulia
Post by Thomas Bächler
Post by Felipe Contreras
That's not more pragmatic,
It is. Person X is annoying everyone, so person X can't post any longer.
You seem to be conflating pragmatism with bigotry.
Those of us who are used to the internet don't get annoyed
by other peoples' silliness.
This is sort of how I feel about Tom and other who have gotten very
upset and taken leave of the list.

http://xkcd.com/386/
Anthony ''Ishpeck'' Tedjamulia
2012-08-16 15:59:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Calvin Morrison
On 16 August 2012 11:47, Anthony ''Ishpeck'' Tedjamulia
Post by Anthony ''Ishpeck'' Tedjamulia
Those of us who are used to the internet don't get annoyed
by other peoples' silliness.
This is sort of how I feel about Tom and other who have gotten very
upset and taken leave of the list.
I don't really blame him. His goal, in reading the list, is to help
those who need technical support in the stuff he works on. His goal
is not to have philosophical arguments with people about software he
has no intention on working on.

If we have a healthy and lively debate that he has no part in, and
these debates end up dominating the list, he _should_ move. There
is no harm in focusing on what matters to you.
Calvin Morrison
2012-08-16 16:00:55 UTC
Permalink
On 16 August 2012 11:59, Anthony ''Ishpeck'' Tedjamulia
Post by Anthony ''Ishpeck'' Tedjamulia
Post by Calvin Morrison
On 16 August 2012 11:47, Anthony ''Ishpeck'' Tedjamulia
Post by Anthony ''Ishpeck'' Tedjamulia
Those of us who are used to the internet don't get annoyed
by other peoples' silliness.
This is sort of how I feel about Tom and other who have gotten very
upset and taken leave of the list.
I don't really blame him. His goal, in reading the list, is to help
those who need technical support in the stuff he works on. His goal
is not to have philosophical arguments with people about software he
has no intention on working on.
If we have a healthy and lively debate that he has no part in, and
these debates end up dominating the list, he _should_ move. There
is no harm in focusing on what matters to you.
Right, but he has even said (along with others) that "nobody is gonna
change their mind, who cares about them, they're just trolls..." to
that effect.

Why bother fighting something so stupid, if even you admit it is stupid?

It's just totally pointless

Calvin
Anthony ''Ishpeck'' Tedjamulia
2012-08-16 16:05:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Calvin Morrison
Right, but he has even said (along with others) that "nobody is gonna
change their mind, who cares about them, they're just trolls..." to
that effect.
Why bother fighting something so stupid, if even you admit it is stupid?
It's just totally pointless
We all tend to pepper our actual communications with some personal
narrative. It takes great communication skill to extract the actual
meaning from the things that humans inevitably say.

What he said was: "I'm working on this software. If you need help
with it, lemme know in this other place."

Yes. He has feelings and those were conveyed on top of that message
but it's okay. These things stop mattering eventually and the real
effect is, if you need technical help from him, submit a bug report.
Thomas Bächler
2012-08-16 16:11:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Calvin Morrison
This is sort of how I feel about Tom and other who have gotten very
upset and taken leave of the list.
http://xkcd.com/386/
I plead guilty.
Tom Gundersen
2012-08-16 16:48:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Calvin Morrison
On 16 August 2012 11:47, Anthony ''Ishpeck'' Tedjamulia
Post by Anthony ''Ishpeck'' Tedjamulia
Post by Thomas Bächler
Post by Felipe Contreras
That's not more pragmatic,
It is. Person X is annoying everyone, so person X can't post any longer.
You seem to be conflating pragmatism with bigotry.
Those of us who are used to the internet don't get annoyed
by other peoples' silliness.
This is sort of how I feel about Tom and other who have gotten very
upset and taken leave of the list.
http://xkcd.com/386/
Spot on :-)
Gaetan Bisson
2012-08-16 15:59:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony ''Ishpeck'' Tedjamulia
Those of us who are used to the internet don't get annoyed
by other peoples' silliness.
Let's all settle for a mediocre Internet and learn to cope with it.
--
Gaetan
C Anthony Risinger
2012-08-16 15:15:33 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 8:08 AM, Felipe Contreras
Post by Felipe Contreras
Post by Thomas Bächler
Post by Felipe Contreras
I'm an old archlinux user (first installation back in december 2008),
and for a long time, I was very satisfied with arch-general. But some
people - can we define them as bottom holes ? - are rotting this
mailing list, and the community too.
Do what the Linux kernel does: ignore the mails. Most mail clients
have an option to mute a thread.
I prefer the more pragmatic approach: Simply ban some people from the
list to make it quiet again.
That's not more pragmatic, that's more authoritarian, but whatever
floats your boat; if you want to squash dissidence, that's certainly
the way.
dude, if i wielded the mighty banhammer, you'd have already been axed
days ago! along with you're hoodlum friends! ;-)

i don't think we are really talking about "we don't like yer type
round here" perm bans ... more like "friendly neighborhood" temp ban
(because we care!) to improve the responsibility, and above all,
accountability, of incoming messages. if not a temp ban, the
heuristics to rate-limit people or something ...

i wish mailing lists had a sort of "mob auth" where you could "motion"
for some action ... i mean, yeah, i could kill-file-or-what-have-you
... but like any other problem, they are better solved at the source.
--
C Anthony
Tobias Frilling
2012-08-16 16:47:28 UTC
Permalink
I think we all forgot the most fundamental rule in dealing with trolls:

Do *not* feed the trolls!

If you found someone guilty of being a troll, don't argue. Doesn't matter how
wrong he is or how stupid his opinions, he won't change his mind; you're just
wasting your time and energy. If someone just posts something just for the sake
of flaming and spreading FUD but no one is reacting, he's going to leave.
Lucas Saliés Brum
2012-08-16 20:15:09 UTC
Permalink
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Do *not* feed the trolls!
If you found someone guilty of being a troll, don't argue. Doesn't matter how
wrong he is or how stupid his opinions, he won't change his mind; you're just
wasting your time and energy. If someone just posts something just for the sake
of flaming and spreading FUD but no one is reacting, he's going to leave.
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+1
Felipe Contreras
2012-08-16 20:29:03 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 6:47 PM, Tobias Frilling
Post by Tobias Frilling
Do *not* feed the trolls!
If you found someone guilty of being a troll, don't argue. Doesn't matter how
wrong he is or how stupid his opinions, he won't change his mind; you're just
wasting your time and energy. If someone just posts something just for the sake
of flaming and spreading FUD but no one is reacting, he's going to leave.
Yeah, if you follow rules like that there's no need for banning; just
ignore the post you think are spam, or trolling, or boring, or
whatever.
--
Felipe Contreras
Anthony ''Ishpeck'' Tedjamulia
2012-08-16 15:01:07 UTC
Permalink
Last threads on systemd was useless.
I disagree. In the last thread, I had to really dig for outside information to understand both sides of the argument. My research and tinkering has lead me to the following valuable conclusions:

Init scripts are wrong.

Sure, you can say they're adequate, that things start-up as you want them to. But that's not the same as them being right. They're gratuitously stateful, they leave you with a lot of uncertain state (can has idempotence?), they are large amounts of delicate code that only provide the illusion of stability because they've been so prolific and so heartily tested by a bounteous supply of users.

systemd is also wrong.

Pretty much, all anybody can say about systemd is that it isn't init scripts. This much is certainly true. It still does unnecessary parsing (place for bugs to lurk), it is highly coupled (having dependency on outside software including the kernel), and it goes to unnecessary lengths to nurture sloppy daemon developers.

The arch dev's are making the right call.

They can't maintain a fork of all the software that's going to be coupled to systemd. We're going to have to accept it sooner or later. systemd isn't really any better but I'm unsure if it's any worse. It's okay if we move the bugs into a place that upstream is more inclined to look at and fix.

I know you guys can't be convinced to use daemontools and I'm not sure if you should at this point. Making the right decision is therefore not an option. You should just go with the wrong decision that's easiest for the movers-and-shakers to live with.

I got all this from reading the several monster threads.

Arch-general seems to be working for me.
Kevin Chadwick
2012-08-16 17:01:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony ''Ishpeck'' Tedjamulia
Last threads on systemd was useless.
Init scripts are wrong.
Sure, you can say they're adequate, that things start-up as you want them to. But that's not the same as them being right. They're gratuitously stateful, they leave you with a lot of uncertain state (can has idempotence?), they are large amounts of delicate code that only provide the illusion of stability because they've been so prolific and so heartily tested by a bounteous supply of users.
systemd is also wrong.
Pretty much, all anybody can say about systemd is that it isn't init scripts. This much is certainly true. It still does unnecessary parsing (place for bugs to lurk), it is highly coupled (having dependency on outside software including the kernel), and it goes to unnecessary lengths to nurture sloppy daemon developers.
The arch dev's are making the right call.
They can't maintain a fork of all the software that's going to be coupled to systemd. We're going to have to accept it sooner or later. systemd isn't really any better but I'm unsure if it's any worse. It's okay if we move the bugs into a place that upstream is more inclined to look at and fix.
I certainly can't disagree with Toms opinion for Arch having an easier
life.

Hopefully any decent software will maintain compatibility with systemd
less systems as systemd is intended to be only compatible with Linux
and is completely incompatible with the deeply embedded Linux systems
which are gaining momentum and often only have vfork and little memory
or time to read it often requiring minimised libc and shells. I'm quite
confident that compatibility will persist to a similar level as BSD is
so heavily used by ISP and academic institutions and even NASA and
Gnome3 going Linux only came to it's senses eventually.

When systemd is brought up again I think these links from arguments
between redhat developers will be good to further sum up and keep this
list quieter.

http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2011-June/152635.html

http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2011-June/152636.html
--
_______________________________________________________________________

'Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work
together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a
universal interface'

(Doug McIlroy)
_______________________________________________________________________
Oon-Ee Ng
2012-08-15 22:33:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by set
Hello.
I'm an old archlinux user (first installation back in december 2008),
and for a long time, I was very satisfied with arch-general. But some
people - can we define them as bottom holes ? - are rotting this
mailing list, and the community too.
Last threads on systemd was useless. And I can understand that every
single developer will unsuscribe. As a user, I will do so too. I think
archlinux community needs a little clean up and kick the bottom of
people who are not arguing but messing lists.
I won't post anymore on this list, but I wanted to express my mind here.
Please, excuse my bad english, it is 10 pm where I live.
Aren't there any moderators who can kick off trouble makers ?
That's not how MLs work. Unfortunately
Denis A. Altoé Falqueto
2012-08-16 01:00:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Oon-Ee Ng
Post by set
Aren't there any moderators who can kick off trouble makers ?
That's not how MLs work. Unfortunately
I think there are list management software that can allows moderation
But there should be someone willing to cope with that boring task of
being the gate keeper.

I really think that we should ban peopple more often (if there was a
temporary ban, even better).
--
A: Because it obfuscates the reading.
Q: Why is top posting so bad?
For more information, please read: http://idallen.com/topposting.html

-------------------------------------------
Denis A. Altoe Falqueto
Linux user #524555
-------------------------------------------
Oon-Ee Ng
2012-08-16 01:06:42 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 9:00 AM, Denis A. Altoé Falqueto
Post by Denis A. Altoé Falqueto
Post by Oon-Ee Ng
Post by set
Aren't there any moderators who can kick off trouble makers ?
That's not how MLs work. Unfortunately
I think there are list management software that can allows moderation
But there should be someone willing to cope with that boring task of
being the gate keeper.
I really think that we should ban peopple more often (if there was a
temporary ban, even better).
We already have a moderated channel. Its called the Arch forums
(bbs.archlinux.org). Unfortunately the SNR there is worse than here
(speaking as a mod), at least prior to this systemd/LP stuff.

Advantages of forums - at least 3 of those posting here on the ML
would have been given a short holiday for type of post.

Disadvantage - to put it bluntly, too many clueless users. Not that it
seems the ML is any different these last few days.

Choose your poison.
Jeremiah Dodds
2012-08-16 04:53:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Oon-Ee Ng
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 9:00 AM, Denis A. Altoé Falqueto
Post by Denis A. Altoé Falqueto
Post by Oon-Ee Ng
Post by set
Aren't there any moderators who can kick off trouble makers ?
That's not how MLs work. Unfortunately
I think there are list management software that can allows moderation
But there should be someone willing to cope with that boring task of
being the gate keeper.
I really think that we should ban peopple more often (if there was a
temporary ban, even better).
We already have a moderated channel. Its called the Arch forums
(bbs.archlinux.org). Unfortunately the SNR there is worse than here
(speaking as a mod), at least prior to this systemd/LP stuff.
Advantages of forums - at least 3 of those posting here on the ML
would have been given a short holiday for type of post.
Disadvantage - to put it bluntly, too many clueless users. Not that it
seems the ML is any different these last few days.
Choose your poison.
I tend to prefer systems that provide mailing lists and forums as two
separate frontends to the same data.

As far as ML noise goes, that's what killfiles and client-side filters
are for, no? People can (or at least should be able to) configure their
mailreaders to mute people or topics they want to mute.
--
Jeremiah Dodds

blog : http://jdodds.github.com
github : https://github.com/jdodds
freenode : exhortatory
twitter : kaens
Thomas Rand
2012-08-16 05:59:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeremiah Dodds
Post by Oon-Ee Ng
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 9:00 AM, Denis A. Altoé Falqueto
Post by Denis A. Altoé Falqueto
Post by Oon-Ee Ng
Post by set
Aren't there any moderators who can kick off trouble makers ?
That's not how MLs work. Unfortunately
I think there are list management software that can allows moderation
But there should be someone willing to cope with that boring task of
being the gate keeper.
I really think that we should ban peopple more often (if there was a
temporary ban, even better).
We already have a moderated channel. Its called the Arch forums
(bbs.archlinux.org). Unfortunately the SNR there is worse than here
(speaking as a mod), at least prior to this systemd/LP stuff.
Advantages of forums - at least 3 of those posting here on the ML
would have been given a short holiday for type of post.
Disadvantage - to put it bluntly, too many clueless users. Not that it
seems the ML is any different these last few days.
Choose your poison.
I tend to prefer systems that provide mailing lists and forums as two
separate frontends to the same data.
As far as ML noise goes, that's what killfiles and client-side filters
are for, no? People can (or at least should be able to) configure their
mailreaders to mute people or topics they want to mute.
--
Jeremiah Dodds
blog : http://jdodds.github.com
github : https://github.com/jdodds
freenode : exhortatory
twitter : kaens
this mailing list has only become a mess because people are intent on
voicing the pointless opinions on systemd & it's creator which has
forced the dev to unsubscribe due to the sheer pointlessness of the
noise being created.

To me it is all beginning like the south park scene:
rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble
rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble
rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble
rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble
rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble
rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble
rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble
rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble
rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble
rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble
rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble
rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble
--
Regards
Thomas Rand
Jeremiah Dodds
2012-08-16 06:54:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thomas Rand
Post by Jeremiah Dodds
I tend to prefer systems that provide mailing lists and forums as two
separate frontends to the same data.
As far as ML noise goes, that's what killfiles and client-side filters
are for, no? People can (or at least should be able to) configure their
mailreaders to mute people or topics they want to mute.
this mailing list has only become a mess because people are intent on
voicing the pointless opinions on systemd & it's creator which has
forced the dev to unsubscribe due to the sheer pointlessness of the
noise being created.
...
(repeated "rabble" snipped)
A: No one *forced* the dev to do anything.
B: If it's noise to you, kill or filter out the threads in your reader.
C: Don't complain about the ML being a mess and then paste a paragraph's
worth of the same word.
--
Jeremiah Dodds

blog : http://jdodds.github.com
github : https://github.com/jdodds
freenode : exhortatory
twitter : kaens
Thomas Rand
2012-08-16 07:10:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeremiah Dodds
Post by Thomas Rand
Post by Jeremiah Dodds
I tend to prefer systems that provide mailing lists and forums as two
separate frontends to the same data.
As far as ML noise goes, that's what killfiles and client-side filters
are for, no? People can (or at least should be able to) configure their
mailreaders to mute people or topics they want to mute.
this mailing list has only become a mess because people are intent on
voicing the pointless opinions on systemd & it's creator which has
forced the dev to unsubscribe due to the sheer pointlessness of the
noise being created.
...
(repeated "rabble" snipped)
A: No one *forced* the dev to do anything.
oh sorry was that a wrong word choice!!!!!!!(sorry repeated char)
either way the dev has gone else where
Post by Jeremiah Dodds
B: If it's noise to you, kill or filter out the threads in your reader.
how about the OP takes his argument to another place considering they
are off topic & here to insight argument. The only on topic part was
that systemd is coming to arch the rest is pointless noise which
itself should have been else where.
Post by Jeremiah Dodds
C: Don't complain about the ML being a mess and then paste a paragraph's
worth of the same word.
that was an attempt at humour sorry if you did not like it & if you do
not like south park but it is true

If it were my ML i would have deleted it & sent a msg to the op telling him why.
This ML is for general support not a cacophony of opinions on
something which at that point in time had not been decided upon which
has resulted in this ML becoming a mess.

Again sorry if you did not get my light hearted joke from south park
but I thought it kinda summed up the situation.
Post by Jeremiah Dodds
--
Jeremiah Dodds
blog : http://jdodds.github.com
github : https://github.com/jdodds
freenode : exhortatory
twitter : kaens
--
Regards
Thomas Rand
Jeremiah Dodds
2012-08-16 07:49:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thomas Rand
Post by Jeremiah Dodds
B: If it's noise to you, kill or filter out the threads in your reader.
how about the OP takes his argument to another place considering they
are off topic & here to insight argument. The only on topic part was
that systemd is coming to arch the rest is pointless noise which
itself should have been else where.
That's the thing, other people are obviously not in agreeance with you
about the threads being off-topic. Some people do agree. The ones that
do are free to never have to see a systemd thread again, or never see a
thread started by a person they think is only here to incite argument
again, with minor configuration of any news reader worth it's salt.

With "-general" MLs, I don't really see the point of censorship of
anything that isn't blatant spam, which the systemd threads are not. I
particularly don't see the point when it's generally trivial for people
who are bothered by some thread or some offer to hide them.

You are not the arbiter of "pointless noise" for this list. Neither am
I. I'm the arbiter of "pointless noise" for what I read, and I'm more
than capable of ensuring that I don't read "pointless noise" -- so are
you. The list should not bend to the whim of accusations of noise, the
filters and killfiles of the accuser should.
--
Jeremiah Dodds

blog : http://jdodds.github.com
github : https://github.com/jdodds
freenode : exhortatory
twitter : kaens
Oon-Ee Ng
2012-08-16 09:19:50 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 3:49 PM, Jeremiah Dodds
Post by Jeremiah Dodds
With "-general" MLs, I don't really see the point of censorship of
anything that isn't blatant spam, which the systemd threads are not. I
particularly don't see the point when it's generally trivial for people
who are bothered by some thread or some offer to hide them.
The ML is unmoderated, in its current form. And 'trivial to hide' is
of course true.
Post by Jeremiah Dodds
You are not the arbiter of "pointless noise" for this list. Neither am
I. I'm the arbiter of "pointless noise" for what I read, and I'm more
than capable of ensuring that I don't read "pointless noise" -- so are
you. The list should not bend to the whim of accusations of noise, the
filters and killfiles of the accuser should.
While this is also true, the practical effect of it is exactly what is
happening. Lots of pointless noise which is chasing away devs. Each
dev is the arbiter of what constitutes pointless noise for them, and
they're deciding. Philosophical platitudes about how everyone should
only post and read what they want are pointless in light of that.

For me, [arch-general] loses its point if its just a lot of rabble
talking to each other. That's the net effect of what's been going on
this past week, because most of those with a clue don't have the
patience for all this spam. Congratulations to the trolls on the
effect they've had.
Kevin Chadwick
2012-08-16 10:13:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Oon-Ee Ng
Congratulations to the trolls on the
effect they've had.
Except I would see some of your posts as trolling and I'm sure you
would see some of mine as trolling too.

I have tried not to but have re-iterated some things when I have felt
that blatant inaccuracies have come along and I am sorry for that as it
simply exacerbates the problem.

It's not like controversial software comes up every day, though it seems
to be getting more frequent, I guess due to it being easier to develop
programs with less experience. Systemd has outpoured twice since I've
been here and apparently before I used arch so let's remember that and
simply provide a link to past threads or a 'please google' when anything
comes up on those subjects.

A consolation. I guess many of us are reasonably well informed on the
subject.
--
_______________________________________________________________________

'Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work
together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a
universal interface'

(Doug McIlroy)
_______________________________________________________________________
Dennis Herbrich
2012-08-16 06:10:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeremiah Dodds
As far as ML noise goes, that's what killfiles and client-side filters
are for, no? People can (or at least should be able to) configure their
mailreaders to mute people or topics they want to mute.
This. This so very much.

We're all consenting adults here. Just hit that delete button, ESC-d, Del or
adjust your scorefile/junk filter, and enjoy a quiet evening in your very own
bubble of comfortable reality without dissenting opinions! ;)

Seriously, the list isn't a *mess*. It's very carefully structured flaming,
even sticking to the topic! Heck, it HAS a topic! You'd *love* to have that
back once the professional trolls arrive and post ALL OVER THE LIST with
anonymous addresses, proxied IPs with new subjects all the time and broken
Reply-To headers, making selective filtering nearly impossible for the
uninitiated.

Please keep in mind that just deleting a post that aggravates you is very, very
easily done, even more so if a whole thread is basically derailed and doesn't
deserve attention. Instead of asking for moderation, just continue posting
worthwile stuff yourself, improving the signal instead of reducing the noise,
so to speak. And remember to not feed the trolls. Life goes on.

Yeah, that's one smart-ass long-term lurker talking here about improving signal
quality with a useless meta-post. :P

I, for one, will surely stay subscribed, and would advise against a knee-jerk
moderation implementation. The "old man" forwarding is already happening
informally in a way, too, with topics started here being picked up in arch-dev.

Have a nice day, everyone!
Dennis
--
"Den Rechtsstaat macht aus, dass Unschuldige wieder frei kommen."
Dr. Wolfgang Schäuble, Bundesinnenminister (14.10.08, TAZ-Interview)

0D21BE6C - F3DC D064 BB88 5162 56BE 730F 5471 3881 0D21 BE6C
Thomas Bächler
2012-08-16 12:22:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dennis Herbrich
Post by Jeremiah Dodds
As far as ML noise goes, that's what killfiles and client-side filters
are for, no? People can (or at least should be able to) configure their
mailreaders to mute people or topics they want to mute.
This. This so very much.
We're all consenting adults here. Just hit that delete button, ESC-d, Del or
adjust your scorefile/junk filter, and enjoy a quiet evening in your very own
bubble of comfortable reality without dissenting opinions! ;)
So you're saying that instead of fixing the problem, every user should
remove the offending posts.

The problem here are a small handful of people who start flames and
spread FUD. Banning a handful of people from the list is an easier
solution IMO. I am generally against such measures, but it seems we will
have no choice.
Mihamina Rakotomandimby
2012-08-16 12:26:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thomas Bächler
Post by Dennis Herbrich
We're all consenting adults here. Just hit that delete button, ESC-d, Del or
adjust your scorefile/junk filter
So you're saying that instead of fixing the problem, every user should
remove the offending posts.
Further,
Clever people always have a look at the "community" when choosing a project.

For example, before installing a distribution I take care of the support
community:
- are there MLs?
- how crowded (quantity & quality)?
- ...

Filtering end-user-side will keep the crap archived.
Banning will avoid archiving of junk content.

Please, consider baning rather than advising filters.

Cheers.
--
RMA.
Calvin Morrison
2012-08-16 12:32:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thomas Bächler
The problem here are a small handful of people who start flames and
spread FUD. Banning a handful of people from the list is an easier
solution IMO. I am generally against such measures, but it seems we will
have no choice.
Can we please make the difference between flaming and trolling shown?
I think it is clear that all of the people arguing against systemd are
1. On topic 2. No disrupting any normal conversation (it's not like
they are preventing regular stuff going on. 3. very concerned with
systemd being put in place. 4. sometimes saying very inflammatory
statements (but so do people who support systemd)


This ML is a great place to discuss stuff, I'd like to keep it that
way. Trolling is much more malicious and much more intentional. Please
don't accuse people of trolling who are arguing for a real reason.
Heiko Baums
2012-08-16 14:57:54 UTC
Permalink
Am Thu, 16 Aug 2012 14:22:58 +0200
Post by Thomas Bächler
So you're saying that instead of fixing the problem, every user should
remove the offending posts.
The problem here are a small handful of people who start flames and
spread FUD. Banning a handful of people from the list is an easier
solution IMO. I am generally against such measures, but it seems we
will have no choice.
And how do you decide whom to ban? Just because his opinion differs
from yours? No personal offend. But there are or have been quite a lot
of people here - I would even say, most of the people who are currently
screaming the loudest - who are calling other people troll, while being
trolls themselves, and shout for banning those people just because
those people have different opinions and they can't bear other opinions.

If you want to ban one of them you should ban both of them.

Of course, this thread is very long. Of course, there's a lot of
off-topic in this thread. Of course, there are a lot of pointless and
silly e-mails in this thread. Nevertheless there are a lot of
interesting and helpful information in this thread. And I think
everybody has a right to say his opinion, even if he doesn't have a
detailed, technical "proof" of his opinion. And if people can't bear
other people's opinions they should think about themselves and not ban
the others.

Btw., there have been some other long threads on this mailing list as
well as on other mailing lists. All of those threads eventually came to
an end. And I'm pretty sure that this will be the case with this
thread, too.

Heiko
Sander Jansen
2012-08-16 15:08:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Heiko Baums
Am Thu, 16 Aug 2012 14:22:58 +0200
Post by Thomas Bächler
So you're saying that instead of fixing the problem, every user should
remove the offending posts.
The problem here are a small handful of people who start flames and
spread FUD. Banning a handful of people from the list is an easier
solution IMO. I am generally against such measures, but it seems we
will have no choice.
And how do you decide whom to ban? Just because his opinion differs
from yours? No personal offend. But there are or have been quite a lot
of people here - I would even say, most of the people who are currently
screaming the loudest - who are calling other people troll, while being
trolls themselves, and shout for banning those people just because
those people have different opinions and they can't bear other opinions.
If you want to ban one of them you should ban both of them.
It's not exactly rocket science. Other forums and mailing lists have
moderators and rules. You can even have a team of mods, if you don't
trust the one person to decide whether to (temporary) ban or not. Arch
has decided the forum needs mods... why shouldn't the mailing list?

Cheers,

Sander
Felipe Contreras
2012-08-16 20:27:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sander Jansen
It's not exactly rocket science. Other forums and mailing lists have
moderators and rules.
The alternative is not rocket science either; ignore the threads you
don't care about. And other mailing lists do that as well (e.g. LKML).
--
Felipe Contreras
Thomas Bächler
2012-08-16 15:08:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Heiko Baums
Am Thu, 16 Aug 2012 14:22:58 +0200
Post by Thomas Bächler
So you're saying that instead of fixing the problem, every user should
remove the offending posts.
The problem here are a small handful of people who start flames and
spread FUD. Banning a handful of people from the list is an easier
solution IMO. I am generally against such measures, but it seems we
will have no choice.
And how do you decide whom to ban? Just because his opinion differs
from yours? No personal offend. But there are or have been quite a lot
of people here - I would even say, most of the people who are currently
screaming the loudest - who are calling other people troll, while being
trolls themselves, and shout for banning those people just because
those people have different opinions and they can't bear other opinions.
I am not planning to start banning people, at least I don't want to. I
am simply stating that it is an option that will be considered and that
client-side filtering is not an acceptable solution.

I am hoping that the threat of being banned will make people shut up for
a day and calm down, then continue discussing normally and calmly.
Post by Heiko Baums
And I think
everybody has a right to say his opinion, even if he doesn't have a
detailed, technical "proof" of his opinion.
This is a technical mailing list. If you want to discuss technical
topics about Arch, you're in the right place. If you want to state your
_opinion_, get yourself a blog.
Heiko Baums
2012-08-16 15:28:03 UTC
Permalink
Am Thu, 16 Aug 2012 17:08:53 +0200
Post by Thomas Bächler
This is a technical mailing list. If you want to discuss technical
topics about Arch, you're in the right place. If you want to state
your _opinion_, get yourself a blog.
And if this opinion is about something going on (for the better or for
the worse) in Arch Linux? If I have concerns about systemd for good
reasons, even if they are not "technical" but, say if you like,
"personal"? Well, the "personal" concerns can easily become "technical"
ones sooner or later. See PA. Blaming ALSA for PA's bugs. What if this
will happen with systemd, too? And I bet this will happen sooner or
later.

Shall I really shut up or open my own blog, which the Arch devs, TUs
and other users for sure won't know or read? Or would it be better to
say my opinion on this "technical" mailing list, so that people can
think about that before probably doing a mistake?

Heiko
Gaetan Bisson
2012-08-16 15:56:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Heiko Baums
If I have concerns about systemd for good
reasons, even if they are not "technical" but, say if you like,
"personal"?
Why would any of us care about your personal life?
Post by Heiko Baums
Well, the "personal" concerns can easily become "technical"
ones sooner or later. See PA. Blaming ALSA for PA's bugs. What if this
will happen with systemd, too? And I bet this will happen sooner or
later.
Your head must be such as mess if you can make sense of the above...
Post by Heiko Baums
Shall I really shut up or open my own blog, which the Arch devs, TUs
and other users for sure won't know or read?
Do either. And when you have five seconds please reflect on why none of
us would read your blog...
Post by Heiko Baums
Or would it be better to
say my opinion on this "technical" mailing list, so that people can
think about that before probably doing a mistake?
Our mistake is to read your messages.
--
Gaetan
Heiko Baums
2012-08-16 19:19:23 UTC
Permalink
Am Fri, 17 Aug 2012 01:56:57 +1000
Post by Gaetan Bisson
Why would any of us care about your personal life?
...
Your head must be such as mess if you can make sense of the above...
...
Do either. And when you have five seconds please reflect on why none
of us would read your blog...
...
Our mistake is to read your messages.
And you know what you have written? Have you really read my e-mail? I
don't think so. I would say, everything you told me outright you should
better tell yourself. Honestly I really can't understand what you are
referring to, and what you want to tell me.

Where have I written anything about my personal life?

But never mind. I really don't care.

Oh, sorry. I forgot. I shouldn't feed the trolls.

Heiko
gt
2012-08-17 05:23:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Heiko Baums
Am Thu, 16 Aug 2012 17:08:53 +0200
Post by Thomas Bächler
This is a technical mailing list. If you want to discuss technical
topics about Arch, you're in the right place. If you want to state
your _opinion_, get yourself a blog.
And if this opinion is about something going on (for the better or for
the worse) in Arch Linux? If I have concerns about systemd for good
reasons, even if they are not "technical" but, say if you like,
"personal"? Well, the "personal" concerns can easily become "technical"
ones sooner or later. See PA. Blaming ALSA for PA's bugs. What if this
will happen with systemd, too? And I bet this will happen sooner or
later.
Shall I really shut up or open my own blog, which the Arch devs, TUs
and other users for sure won't know or read? Or would it be better to
say my opinion on this "technical" mailing list, so that people can
think about that before probably doing a mistake?
I agree. Posting on a blog doesn't get you the intended audience, unless
it's a well known one. All you'll get is crawlers and spammers.

I enjoy all the discussions on this list, and value the opinion of all
users, and if there's someone/something I don't like, I just ignore
that. As simple as that.
Justin Strickland
2012-08-17 05:52:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by gt
Post by Heiko Baums
Am Thu, 16 Aug 2012 17:08:53 +0200
Post by Thomas Bächler
This is a technical mailing list. If you want to discuss technical
topics about Arch, you're in the right place. If you want to state
your _opinion_, get yourself a blog.
And if this opinion is about something going on (for the better or for
the worse) in Arch Linux? If I have concerns about systemd for good
reasons, even if they are not "technical" but, say if you like,
"personal"? Well, the "personal" concerns can easily become "technical"
ones sooner or later. See PA. Blaming ALSA for PA's bugs. What if this
will happen with systemd, too? And I bet this will happen sooner or
later.
Shall I really shut up or open my own blog, which the Arch devs, TUs
and other users for sure won't know or read? Or would it be better to
say my opinion on this "technical" mailing list, so that people can
think about that before probably doing a mistake?
I agree. Posting on a blog doesn't get you the intended audience, unless
it's a well known one. All you'll get is crawlers and spammers.
I enjoy all the discussions on this list, and value the opinion of all
users, and if there's someone/something I don't like, I just ignore
that. As simple as that.
heh seems most of this blaze has to do with users who are unfamiliar with systemd and by convention afraid of it, I suppose the devs could lay down the law and just be like 'this is what arch is going to ship with and this is what we are going to support get over it!' then maybe this'll die down. but thats just my 2 cents. I'm like you I don't really care what everyone else thinks whats gonna happen is gonna happen whether certain users like it or not, the final decision is up to the people who develop and maintain arch if they deem something should go or something could goand it would make their job even the slightest bit easier on them, who are we to complain, I mean I've taken a look at the effort it takes to build a distro and let me tell you its not easy making 100's(possibly 1000's) of things to work and play nicely together.
Anthony ''Ishpeck'' Tedjamulia
2012-08-17 12:13:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Justin Strickland
heh seems most of this blaze has to do with users who are unfamiliar with systemd and by convention afraid of it
I've seen a couple of people for whom this is probably true.

But I have seen a couple of posts that seem more educated on the matter.

I have to use systemd every day at work. I use it next to several other
startup systems which are far worse (including init scripts).

It is my use of systemd that causes me to hate it.
Kyle
2012-08-17 17:48:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Justin Strickland
heh seems most of this blaze has to do with users who are unfamiliar with systemd and by convention afraid of it, I suppose the devs could lay down the law and just be like 'this is what arch is going to ship with and this is what we are going to support get over it!' then maybe this'll die down. but thats just my 2 cents.
The problem is that this has already been done, and the devs have even
posted here to let us know that the initscripts package is *not* going
away for as long as possible, even before the decision to transition to
systemd was finalized. In spite of this, the mess didn't "die down," and
some people on the list have resorted to personal attacks against one of
the systemd lead developers and other list members in an attempt to sway
the Arch devs away from systemd rather than even arguing their case
against systemd based on technical criticisms, most of which can bee
worked out by reporting bugs through the official channels, including
the Arch bug tracker[1] and the systemd bug tracker[2]. It is such
personal attacks against both the developers of systemd and others on
this list that prompted Tom and other Arch developers to minimize their
contact with the list, and I for one don't blame them for wanting to
stay out of the line of fire.

[1] https://bugs.archlinux.org
[2] https://bugs.freedesktop.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=systemd
~Kyle
Justin Strickland
2012-08-17 23:17:49 UTC
Permalink
Kyle +1, personally its not as if they are forcing systemd on you they
aren't locking you out of your choice of an init system I've seen too many
people either unaware of this or have failed to remember that arch(as well
as linux in general) is a system of choices of which if you happen to find
something you don't agree with you can change it without too much hassle.
Post by Justin Strickland
heh seems most of this blaze has to do with users who are unfamiliar with
Post by Justin Strickland
systemd and by convention afraid of it, I suppose the devs could lay down
the law and just be like 'this is what arch is going to ship with and this
is what we are going to support get over it!' then maybe this'll die down.
but thats just my 2 cents.
The problem is that this has already been done, and the devs have even
posted here to let us know that the initscripts package is *not* going away
for as long as possible, even before the decision to transition to systemd
was finalized. In spite of this, the mess didn't "die down," and some
people on the list have resorted to personal attacks against one of the
systemd lead developers and other list members in an attempt to sway the
Arch devs away from systemd rather than even arguing their case against
systemd based on technical criticisms, most of which can bee worked out by
reporting bugs through the official channels, including the Arch bug
tracker[1] and the systemd bug tracker[2]. It is such personal attacks
against both the developers of systemd and others on this list that
prompted Tom and other Arch developers to minimize their contact with the
list, and I for one don't blame them for wanting to stay out of the line of
fire.
[1] https://bugs.archlinux.org
[2] https://bugs.freedesktop.org/**enter_bug.cgi?product=systemd<https://bugs.freedesktop.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=systemd>
~Kyle
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