Discussion:
update today causes avantfax_hourly cron: Exec format error?
(too old to reply)
David C. Rankin
2018-08-26 06:13:35 UTC
Permalink
All,

After the linux-firmware update I have started receiving strange cron messages:

Cron <***@phoinix> run-parts /etc/cron.hourly

run-parts: failed to exec /etc/cron.hourly/avantfax_hourly: Exec format error
run-parts: /etc/cron.hourly/avantfax_hourly exited with return code 1

The cron job is:

/etc/cron.hourly/avantfax_hourly

# runs once an hour to update the phone book
0 * * * * /srv/http/avantfax/includes/phb.php

Testing manually works fine:

# ./phb.php
# echo $?

This started after the linux-firmware update:

[2018-08-25 22:40] [PACMAN] Running 'pacman -Syu'
[2018-08-25 22:40] [PACMAN] synchronizing package lists
[2018-08-25 22:41] [PACMAN] starting full system upgrade
[2018-08-25 22:41] [ALPM] transaction started
[2018-08-25 22:41] [ALPM] upgraded linux-firmware (20180815.f1b95fe-1 ->
20180821.1d17c18-3)
[2018-08-25 22:41] [ALPM] transaction completed
[2018-08-25 22:41] [ALPM] running 'systemd-tmpfiles.hook'...
[2018-08-25 22:41] [ALPM] running 'systemd-update.hook'...

(I am 5 hours ahead of UTC - which corresponds to the time just before the
cron messages started)

I am scratching my head as how this can be related? Anybody else having this
type issue after updates in the past 24 hours?
--
David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E.
SET
2018-08-26 07:28:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by David C. Rankin
run-parts: failed to exec /etc/cron.hourly/avantfax_hourly: Exec format
error run-parts: /etc/cron.hourly/avantfax_hourly exited with return code 1
I had a similar error on August 17 on a 32-bit Arch Linux ARM box (unsupported
here, I know) :

Anacron job 'cron.monthly' on host.domain.tld

run-parts: failed to exec /etc/cron.monthly/0certbot: Exec format error
run-parts: /etc/cron.monthly/0certbot exited with return code 1

Running the script manually went on without errors.
Ralph Corderoy
2018-08-26 08:37:01 UTC
Permalink
Hi David,
Cron <root at phoinix> run-parts /etc/cron.hourly
run-parts: failed to exec /etc/cron.hourly/avantfax_hourly: Exec format error
run-parts: /etc/cron.hourly/avantfax_hourly exited with return code 1
/etc/cron.hourly/avantfax_hourly
# runs once an hour to update the phone book
0 * * * * /srv/http/avantfax/includes/phb.php
That's a crontab(5), not something that should sit in /etc/cron.hourly
to be run?

$ cat >avantfax_hourly
# runs once an hour to update the phone book
0 * * * * /srv/http/avantfax/includes/phb.php
$ chmod +x avantfax_hourly
$ run-parts $PWD
run-parts: failed to exec /home/tmp/1535272096.988953819/avantfax_hourly: Exec format error
run-parts: /home/tmp/1535272096.988953819/avantfax_hourly exited with return code 1
$
# ./phb.php
It's not getting that far.
--
Cheers, Ralph.
https://plus.google.com/+RalphCorderoy
David C. Rankin
2018-08-26 09:49:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ralph Corderoy
Post by David C. Rankin
# ./phb.php
It's not getting that far.
I bet you would as root. The file is actually http:http owned, e.g.

-rwxr-xr-x 1 http http 988 Sep 14 2016 /srv/http/avantfax/includes/phb.php

So running as root has no problem. Running as any other user (other than http)
now invokes the error that is the basis for this thread. That's why it is hard
to put my finger on the cause, unless the linux-firmware update tightened
security in some manner so that the cron user no longer can run as http
causing the job to fail.

If you (as root, or http) call /srv/http/avantfax/includes/phb.php, it will
silently run normally and exit with a 0 exit code. Running with any other user
cause about 100 fopen (foo/bar/...) messages to scroll by and a returned exit
code of 1.

I have run this server for years and years, no problems, until today after
updates. I changed nothing on the system other than 'pacman -Syu'. That what
has me bewildered...
--
David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E.
Eli Schwartz via arch-general
2018-08-26 13:11:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by David C. Rankin
Post by Ralph Corderoy
Post by David C. Rankin
# ./phb.php
It's not getting that far.
I bet you would as root. The file is actually http:http owned, e.g.
-rwxr-xr-x 1 http http 988 Sep 14 2016 /srv/http/avantfax/includes/phb.php
So running as root has no problem. Running as any other user (other than http)
now invokes the error that is the basis for this thread. That's why it is hard
to put my finger on the cause, unless the linux-firmware update tightened
security in some manner so that the cron user no longer can run as http
causing the job to fail.
That's literally not how Linux permissions work. In fact, I'm not aware
of any operating system on which that *is* how file permissions work.

You did not get a "permission denied" error. You got a "failed to exec
/etc/cron.hourly/avantfax_hourly: Exec format error".

And thusly, you're completely missing Ralph's point here.

The error message states "failed to exec
/etc/cron.hourly/avantfax_hourly". It is saying the *file*
avantfax_hourly is itself the invalid executable file.

Which makes sense because "run-parts runs all the executable files named
within constraints described below, found in directory directory."

Why do you think run-parts "should" execute this file as a cron script?
Is there some wonderful shebang in the "avantfax_hourly" file which says
"execute this script as a cron executable"?
Post by David C. Rankin
If you (as root, or http) call /srv/http/avantfax/includes/phb.php, it will
silently run normally and exit with a 0 exit code. Running with any other user
cause about 100 fopen (foo/bar/...) messages to scroll by and a returned exit
code of 1.
That sounds like a completely different problem, since by executing the
.php file you actually execute the php file, whereas by executing the
crontab(5) file you get a case where programs determine on their own how
to treat an executable file, in this case by failing to find a shebang
line or an ELF header and complaining that it isn't a valid executable
-- I will note that this actually uses execl/execve to directly execute
the file, returning ENOEXEC *because it doesn't have a valid shebang*
and does not use execlp/execvp which emulate shells like
sh/csh/ksh/bash/zsh in attempting to fall back on executing the shell
/bin/sh with the executable file as the first argument.

...

In summary, if you tried to execute /etc/cron.hourly/avantfax_hourly
rather than run-parts /etc/cron.hourly/avantfax_hourly, you would get
the entirely different effect of it attempting to fallback on executing
/bin/sh /etc/cron.hourly/avantfax_hourly, then failing with a return
code of 1:

/etc/cron.hourly/avantfax_hourly: line 2: 0: command not found

Because the "0" in that cron invocation is not, in fact, valid as the
argv0 of a shell command.
Post by David C. Rankin
I have run this server for years and years, no problems, until today after
updates. I changed nothing on the system other than 'pacman -Syu'. That what
has me bewildered...
Color me equally bewildered, since the manpage of run-parts(1)
emphatically declares that this shall never, ever, ever work under any
conditions whatsoever.

I'm assuming that you're running anacron, not run-parts.

anacron will in fact run, on an hourly schedule, all executables in
/etc/cron.hourly/ and will use run-parts (which is designed to "execute
all executables in a directory") to, well, execute all executables in
that directory.

anacron, is a thing which is configured using a valid crontab(5)
containing cron invocations... to run `run-parts /etc/cron.hourly/`

Once again, your attempt to install crontabs as executables is the
problem here. Unless you either misremembered the events of the day when
you stated "I changed nothing on the system other than 'pacman -Syu'",
or your -Syu updated a program that of its own volition used to execute
anacron and now executes run-parts, I don't see what the issue is here.

But I'm pretty sure casting the blame on CPU microcode updates is pretty
darn erroneous no matter what.

I think you changed something long before that, then compared the time
when anacron was scheduled to begin running your invalid file, to the
time you did an -Syu, and somehow decided that the two were related.
They are not. If you change something, and anacron breaks, but anacron
does't run until an hour later by which point you've already -Syu'ed
again and updated linux-firmware, it's... understandable that the
timestamps for a program designed for *delayed execution* would match up
to something completely and utterly irrelevant.

Mind you, this is just a guess. The only thing I know for sure is that
your real problem is exactly what Ralph said it was.

You're installing a crontab designed to run every hour, into a location
meant to be run as an executable (by anacron which runs every hour).

Please re-read the cron(8), anacron(8), and crontab(5) manpages to see
where you went wrong.
--
Eli Schwartz
Bug Wrangler and Trusted User
SET
2018-08-26 13:48:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eli Schwartz via arch-general
some wonderful shebang
Ha ! My wonderful shebang was "#/bin/sh" instead of "#!/bin/sh".

After correcting the typo, run-parts does not complain.

Thanks.
Eli Schwartz via arch-general
2018-08-26 13:57:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by SET
Post by Eli Schwartz via arch-general
some wonderful shebang
Ha ! My wonderful shebang was "#/bin/sh" instead of "#!/bin/sh".
After correcting the typo, run-parts does not complain.
Yes, that helps if the script is actually a valid script and not a
crontab. :)

I do wonder why run-parts uses execv instead of execvp:

https://salsa.debian.org/debian/debianutils/blob/ffa3684d42b28b4d2851c011843dd2a77e427f8f/run-parts.c#L199

I would think that emulating the well-known behavior of "for actual
shell scripts which do not have shebangs, try using /bin/sh if no
interpreter is detected" would be a reasonable thing to do.

Maybe they're trying to encourage people to use proper shebangs. This is
a nice idea *in principle*, because admittedly, people should.
--
Eli Schwartz
Bug Wrangler and Trusted User
Ralph Corderoy
2018-08-26 14:21:44 UTC
Permalink
Hi Eli,
Post by Eli Schwartz via arch-general
I would think that emulating the well-known behavior of "for actual
shell scripts which do not have shebangs, try using /bin/sh if no
interpreter is detected" would be a reasonable thing to do.
It would be nice if that died out, just as the `first char is ':'
v. '#'' test in the days of sh and csh before `#!' existed.
--
Cheers, Ralph.
https://plus.google.com/+RalphCorderoy
David C. Rankin
2018-08-27 06:57:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eli Schwartz via arch-general
Why do you think run-parts "should" execute this file as a cron script?
Is there some wonderful shebang in the "avantfax_hourly" file which says
"execute this script as a cron executable"?
Yes, of course it does,

$ head -n 2 /srv/http/avantfax/includes/phb.php
#!/usr/bin/php56
<?php

and

$ l /usr/bin/php56
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 10026472 Aug 9 15:50 /usr/bin/php56

Why would I think cron wouldn't run it as specified in my reply:

-rwxr-xr-x 1 http http 988 Sep 14 2016 /srv/http/avantfax/includes/phb.php

Why should cron care whether it is a executable script or an elf file? As long
as the execute permissions are set and cron has the permissions to run it and
the interpreter is specified -- then there should be no issue.

The problem here is the new error that appeared in the journal after the updates.

But wait -- there is more... After further kernel and linux-firmware updates
in the interim, the errors are gone again, e.g.

# journalctl -b | grep -i avantfax
(no output)

It's not like I just dream this stuff up. I check my sever logs routinely. I
have run Arch on it since 2009 -- I'm familiar with what it does. When a new
error appears that wasn't there before the last set of update -- I go looking
for why. When I can't find an answer I ask here -- so if others similarly
situated are affected, they can benefit, as well as determining if this is a
bug or a transient issue.

At this point the issue is moot. After update yesterday to
linux-4.18.5.arch1-1 and linux-firmware-20180825.fea76a0-1, the issue is gone
without me doing anything other than 'pacman -Syu'.

Chock it up to gremlins.
--
David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E.
Guus Snijders via arch-general
2018-08-27 08:43:31 UTC
Permalink
Op ma 27 aug. 2018 08:57 schreef David C. Rankin <
Post by David C. Rankin
Post by Eli Schwartz via arch-general
Why do you think run-parts "should" execute this file as a cron script?
Is there some wonderful shebang in the "avantfax_hourly" file which says
"execute this script as a cron executable"?
Yes, of course it does,
$ head -n 2 /srv/http/avantfax/includes/phb.php
#!/usr/bin/php56
<?php
and
$ l /usr/bin/php56
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 10026472 Aug 9 15:50 /usr/bin/php56
Close, but no cookie.

Cron tries to execute /etc/cron.hourly/avantfax_hourly, so the question is
whether /etc/cron.hourly/avantfax_hourly starts with a hashbang.

The "hourly" directory should contain the executable files you wish to have
executed by cron, not crontab files. The crontab files are config files,
not the executables themselves.

So to execute $prog every hour, you can either: edit the crontab and
configure the schedule, program, etc *or* you create a script (or symlink)
to call $program and place that in cron's "hourly" directory.

It looks like you mixed up both options.


Mvg, Guus Snijders
Ralph Corderoy
2018-08-27 09:25:55 UTC
Permalink
Hi David,
Post by David C. Rankin
Post by Eli Schwartz via arch-general
Is there some wonderful shebang in the "avantfax_hourly" file which
says "execute this script as a cron executable"?
Yes, of course it does,
$ head -n 2 /srv/http/avantfax/includes/phb.php
`avantfax_hourly' != `phb.php'.
Post by David C. Rankin
At this point the issue is moot.
Only if you're not bothered about either continually misleading in
asking your questions, or else not having grasped the key point you
repeatedly miss. :-)
--
Cheers, Ralph.
https://plus.google.com/+RalphCorderoy
Eli Schwartz via arch-general
2018-08-27 11:58:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by David C. Rankin
Post by Eli Schwartz via arch-general
in the "avantfax_hourly" file
Yes, of course it does,
$ head -n 2 /srv/http/avantfax/includes/phb.php
I've reread these two statements eleven times, and I *still* cannot see
where it makes sense for you to determinedly mention a completely
unrelated file.

With such unreserved stubbornness.
Post by David C. Rankin
I have run Arch on it since 2009 -- I'm familiar with what it does.
Just using a thing often used by intelligent, computer-savvy people,
does not *automatically* qualify you as one of them. Just using a thing
for a long time does not *automatically* qualify you as familiar with
that thing.

And in this case, your aggressively prioritized attitude of learned
helplessness makes me wonder whether using Arch is the best thing for you.

For reasons I don't quite understand, you seem to despise the idea of
becoming more knowledgeable about how things work. I don't see how this
can work out...
Post by David C. Rankin
When I can't find an answer I ask here -- so if others similarly
situated are affected, they can benefit, as well as determining if this is a
bug or a transient issue.
I don't see how anyone is benefiting from this, not even you.

Well, SET benefited, but that was incidental, and anyway people with the
need can start their own, more rational threads, and get the same help,
without getting confused and possibly thrown off by your insistence that
the underlying cause is something different and undiagnosed.
Post by David C. Rankin
Chock it up to gremlins.
I'm going to chalk it up to you completely ignoring every last word I
say, with your serene confidence that you already know the answer and
don't need to listen to a word anyone else says.

Noted, for the next time I'm foolish enough to think you *actually* want
help.
--
Eli Schwartz
Bug Wrangler and Trusted User
Ralf Mardorf
2018-08-27 13:02:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eli Schwartz via arch-general
Post by David C. Rankin
I have run Arch on it since 2009 -- I'm familiar with what it does.
Just using a thing often used by intelligent, computer-savvy people,
does not *automatically* qualify you as one of them. Just using a thing
for a long time does not *automatically* qualify you as familiar with
that thing.
And in this case, your aggressively prioritized attitude of learned
helplessness makes me wonder whether using Arch is the best thing for you.
For reasons I don't quite understand, you seem to despise the idea of
becoming more knowledgeable about how things work. I don't see how this
can work out...
Eli, wouldn't it be easier for you to ignore people who are not as wise
and psychologically balanced as you are? I doubt that anybody of us is
able to learn from your wise comments, more likely we laugh at you,
because we are psychically disturbed and dumb, so we don't know better.
Leonid Isaev via arch-general
2018-08-27 13:38:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ralf Mardorf
Eli, wouldn't it be easier for you to ignore people who are not as wise
and psychologically balanced as you are? I doubt that anybody of us is
able to learn from your wise comments, more likely we laugh at you,
because we are psychically disturbed and dumb, so we don't know better.
Well, speak for yourself. And grow up and learn to avoid being disturbed by
(deserved) critisism.

Besides, for anyone knowledgeable it would always be easier to ignore other
less knowledgeable people... But you see where this would end up.

Cheers,
--
Leonid Isaev
Ralf Mardorf
2018-08-27 14:04:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Leonid Isaev via arch-general
Post by Ralf Mardorf
Eli, wouldn't it be easier for you to ignore people who are not as
wise and psychologically balanced as you are? I doubt that anybody
of us is able to learn from your wise comments, more likely we laugh
at you, because we are psychically disturbed and dumb, so we don't
know better.
Well, speak for yourself. And grow up and learn to avoid being
disturbed by (deserved) critisism.
Take a look at the Archive. If Eli is mistaken, he is unable to admit
that he is and even if he isn't mistaken, often half of the content
of his replies contain implied self-adulation by some kind of
manipulative disregard of other personalities. I'm very, very seldom
disturbed by any kind of criticism, I only try to make Eli aware that
several subscribers are making jokes about him, if he again makes a
fool out of himself. Sure, I'm speaking for myself, this doesn't mean
that I'm not aware of other subscribers' opinions. Sometimes people are
writing emails off-list.
Post by Leonid Isaev via arch-general
Besides, for anyone knowledgeable it would always be easier to ignore
other less knowledgeable people... But you see where this would end up.
Not really and I wasn't talking about knowledge, I was talking about
wisdom and psychologically balance.

Consider to reread Eli's brilliant achievement of wisdom and online
Post by Leonid Isaev via arch-general
Post by Ralf Mardorf
I have run Arch on it since 2009 -- I'm familiar with what it
does.
Just using a thing often used by intelligent, computer-savvy people,
does not *automatically* qualify you as one of them. Just using a thing
for a long time does not *automatically* qualify you as familiar with
that thing.
And in this case, your aggressively prioritized attitude of learned
helplessness makes me wonder whether using Arch is the best thing for you.
For reasons I don't quite understand, you seem to despise the idea of
becoming more knowledgeable about how things work. I don't see how this
can work out...
Also consider to randomly read replies from Eli available by the
Archive, maybe you'll notice something.
Leonid Isaev via arch-general
2018-08-27 14:59:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ralf Mardorf
Post by Leonid Isaev via arch-general
Post by Ralf Mardorf
Eli, wouldn't it be easier for you to ignore people who are not as
wise and psychologically balanced as you are? I doubt that anybody
of us is able to learn from your wise comments, more likely we laugh
at you, because we are psychically disturbed and dumb, so we don't
know better.
Well, speak for yourself. And grow up and learn to avoid being
disturbed by (deserved) critisism.
Take a look at the Archive.
Yeah, and the first post in this thread was about a script that broke because
of a linux-firmware update. I stopped reading after that because it was clear
that the person who wrote that didn't think at all... At least Eli took time to
explain what actually went wrong.
If Eli is mistaken, he is unable to admit
Post by Ralf Mardorf
Consider to reread Eli's brilliant achievement of wisdom and online
Post by Leonid Isaev via arch-general
Post by Ralf Mardorf
I have run Arch on it since 2009 -- I'm familiar with what it does.
Just using a thing often used by intelligent, computer-savvy people,
does not *automatically* qualify you as one of them. Just using a thing
for a long time does not *automatically* qualify you as familiar with
that thing.
And in this case, your aggressively prioritized attitude of learned
helplessness makes me wonder whether using Arch is the best thing for you.
For reasons I don't quite understand, you seem to despise the idea of
becoming more knowledgeable about how things work. I don't see how this
can work out...
Which I totally agree with and support: if you don't want to research problems,
don't run Arch. There are plenty of good distros out there for you.

Cheers,
--
Leonid Isaev
Ralf Mardorf
2018-08-27 15:59:44 UTC
Permalink
At least Eli took time to explain what actually went wrong.
He also took the time to send a _signed_ mail off-list to me. I am
afraid he's rather unwell. Calling me names :D and he's completely lost
in a biased fantasy world.
Maksim Fomin via arch-general
2018-08-27 16:44:19 UTC
Permalink
‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
Post by Leonid Isaev via arch-general
Post by Ralf Mardorf
Eli, wouldn't it be easier for you to ignore people who are not as wise
and psychologically balanced as you are? I doubt that anybody of us is
able to learn from your wise comments, more likely we laugh at you,
because we are psychically disturbed and dumb, so we don't know better.
Well, speak for yourself. And grow up and learn to avoid being disturbed by
(deserved) critisism.
Besides, for anyone knowledgeable it would always be easier to ignore other
less knowledgeable people... But you see where this would end up.
Cheers,
Leonid Isaev
-1. You speak about about learning to listen criticism, but some people have not learned to express their ideas polite and to not being disturbed by less knowledgeable people. This is technical list not intended to aggressive comments. Nowhere it is written that subscribers of this list must tolerate aggressive, non-technical comments.

So, I also join to those thinking that some persons from community are overly aggressive in mailing list/bugzilla/forum (this can be easily proven by looking at user's contribution). Keep in mind, that subscribers are interest neither in dumb questions *nor* in aggressive comments boosting someone's ego.

Maksim Fomin
Ralf Mardorf
2018-09-01 12:17:43 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

I noticed that you have got a "archlinux.org" email address. I
struggled with myself and then decided to send a copy of Eli's email
off-list to you.

I received a _signed_ message off-list from Eli. FWIW I never was banned
from any community. Seemingly I'm important enough to Eli to write
this off-list email. The most important sentence of his off-list email
IMO is "I care more about Arch than I do about myself...". A Claim
like this, in combination with fantasies about intelligence and
standards is psychopathologic.

Regards,
Ralf

Begin forwarded message:

Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2018 11:19:38 -0400
From: Eli Schwartz <***@archlinux.org>
To: Ralf Mardorf <***@zoho.com>
Subject: Re: [arch-general] update today causes avantfax_hourly cron:
Exec format error?
Post by Ralf Mardorf
Post by Leonid Isaev via arch-general
Post by Ralf Mardorf
Eli, wouldn't it be easier for you to ignore people who are not as
wise and psychologically balanced as you are? I doubt that anybody
of us is able to learn from your wise comments, more likely we laugh
at you, because we are psychically disturbed and dumb, so we don't
know better.
I would be more than happy with a different result: having your access
to our community revoked.

I have no interest in you, Ralph Mardorf, ever learning anything from
me. You're a legend, or should I say an infamy, on... more than one part
of the internet, and merely by existing you turn our forums into a
cesspit. As you have already done in other Linux communities... and been
banned for.
Post by Ralf Mardorf
Take a look at the Archive. If Eli is mistaken, he is unable to admit
that he is
You're not nearly important enough either as an Arch user or as a human
being, for me to hunt up the examples that prove you wrong. Either way,
I'm not ashamed of being right more often than I'm wrong.
Post by Ralf Mardorf
and even if he isn't mistaken, often half of the content
of his replies contain implied self-adulation by some kind of
manipulative disregard of other personalities.
I care more about Arch than I do about myself, but either way, I'm
pretty sure you're confusing the idea of someone not backing down when
they are in fact right, but have been Ralphed (attacked by Ralph
Mardorf, it's an official thing in the communities you've crossed), for
being a "manipulative personality".

The truth is that I merely manipulated myself into not caring what you
say.
Post by Ralf Mardorf
I'm very, very seldom
disturbed by any kind of criticism,
It's not a coincidence that 4chan trolls are never bothered by
criticism, but rather, thrive off of conflict and the slinging of mud.
They delight in twisting the facts until they can accuse their
unfortunate victims of being the aggressor.

As such, they, and you, derive twisted pleasure from receiving
criticism.
Post by Ralf Mardorf
I only try to make Eli aware that
several subscribers are making jokes about him, if he again makes a
fool out of himself. Sure, I'm speaking for myself, this doesn't mean
that I'm not aware of other subscribers' opinions. Sometimes people
are writing emails off-list.
In the extremely unlikely event that anyone whose opinions I respect
have a joke to make about me, they will direct their witticisms to me in
person.

I do not care what you have to say about me, though, because I don't
respect your opinion in any way. Your belief in what makes me "a fool"
is very different from Arch Linux community standards, and the standards
of most thoughtful, intelligent people, of which you are neither.
Post by Ralf Mardorf
Post by Leonid Isaev via arch-general
Besides, for anyone knowledgeable it would always be easier to ignore
other less knowledgeable people... But you see where this would end
up.
Not really and I wasn't talking about knowledge, I was talking about
wisdom and psychologically balance.
Except, that really, really is the problem here.
Post by Ralf Mardorf
Consider to reread Eli's brilliant achievement of wisdom and online
[...]

It's hardly brilliant, or an achievement, or even psychotherapy. I
basically just said that someone who does not know how to handle the
Arch Linux principles as described here:
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Arch_Linux#User_centrality

should consider using a Linux distribution more in line with their needs
and approaches.

That goes for you too, but in your case I would object that your
personality is an additional disqualifier.
--
Eli Schwartz
Bug Wrangler and Trusted User
Jonathon Fernyhough
2018-09-01 14:31:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ralf Mardorf
Hi,
I noticed that you have got a "archlinux.org" email address. I
struggled with myself and then decided to send a copy of Eli's email
off-list to you.
I received a _signed_ message off-list from Eli. FWIW I never was banned
from any community. Seemingly I'm important enough to Eli to write
this off-list email. The most important sentence of his off-list email
IMO is "I care more about Arch than I do about myself...". A Claim
like this, in combination with fantasies about intelligence and
standards is psychopathologic.
Regards,
Ralf
While I've had my own run-ins while getting to grips with "the Arch
approach" (for want of a better phrase), I'd never resort to making
personal attacks, via a mailing list or otherwise.

Taking your own advice, wouldn't it be easier for you to ignore these posts?

Or possibly even better - why don't you provide the help you think is
needed, in a way which meets your expectations of how this help should
be provided?

"Model good practice" instead of "do as I say, not as I do"? That way
your input might be seen as a little more constructive.
Florian Pritz via arch-general
2018-09-01 16:01:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jonathon Fernyhough
While I've had my own run-ins while getting to grips with "the Arch
approach" (for want of a better phrase), I'd never resort to making
personal attacks, via a mailing list or otherwise.
Taking your own advice, wouldn't it be easier for you to ignore these posts?
Or possibly even better - why don't you provide the help you think is
needed, in a way which meets your expectations of how this help should
be provided?
"Model good practice" instead of "do as I say, not as I do"? That way
your input might be seen as a little more constructive.
All very good points. Let's think a bit more about what we post here and
not let emotions run wild. If you are emotional, feel free to wait a day
before sending the mail. We don't deal with issues that require
immediate reactions here.

However, this thread appears so have outlived its usefulness. After
internal discussion I've put the list of moderation for now. Any further
replies to this thread will not get through. The moderation will be
removed once I feel like everyone got the message (likely a few days).

Thanks for continuing to try to make this a better list!

Florian
Ralf Mardorf
2018-09-01 16:17:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jonathon Fernyhough
Post by Ralf Mardorf
Hi,
I noticed that you have got a "archlinux.org" email address. I
struggled with myself and then decided to send a copy of Eli's email
off-list to you.
I received a _signed_ message off-list from Eli. FWIW I never was
banned from any community. Seemingly I'm important enough to Eli to
write this off-list email. The most important sentence of his
off-list email IMO is "I care more about Arch than I do about
myself...". A Claim like this, in combination with fantasies about
intelligence and standards is psychopathologic.
Regards,
Ralf
While I've had my own run-ins while getting to grips with "the Arch
approach" (for want of a better phrase), I'd never resort to making
personal attacks, via a mailing list or otherwise.
Taking your own advice, wouldn't it be easier for you to ignore these posts?
Or possibly even better - why don't you provide the help you think is
needed, in a way which meets your expectations of how this help should
be provided?
"Model good practice" instead of "do as I say, not as I do"? That way
your input might be seen as a little more constructive.
My apologies,

this was a bad mistake done by me. I missed "_Sender_ _via_
arch-general".

I'm sorry.
Ralf

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